Teaching Challenging Populations
Handling behavior problems when nothing you learned from books has worked

"I've done everything they taught me in college, and everything other teachers tell me to do.

This happens to thousands of new teachers every year. They're doing it by the book, but their students still run, yell, fight, talk over them, and generally create such a chaotic atmosphere that it is impossible for any real learning to take place. Clearly these students do not respect their teacher. My theory on why is that the teacher simply does is NOT BEING FIRM ENOUGH. Too many teachers worry about being percieved as 'mean' and having their kids not like them. I PROMISE YOU that if you teach elementary school and show your children that you genuinely care about them by listening to them and valuing their ideas, they WILL like you, no matter how often you take away privileges and discipline them!! There are times when I listen to myself like, whoa, I really wish I didn't have to do this, but here goes... and really lay into the kids. IT HAS TO BE DONE.

Now some new teachers know this and think they are practicing it, but aren't. Once I saw a teacher who was distributing treats that she bought with her own money to students for good behavior. The students were pushing and shoving each other, yelling, saying, "I want that one! I want that one!". That part I believed because if kids are not taught how to behave, they will do things like that., especially since the teacher did not have her PROCEDURES in place (why was the whole class up at once? Why weren't they called by teams or individually?). But what I really couldn't believe was that the teacher STILL GAVE THEM THE TREATS after they nearly mobbed her! She was so flustered trying to give the treats out without having the kids kill each other.

Those kids, in my opinion, deserved NOTHING. I would have raised my voice so they could hear me over the chaos and said loudly (not screaming), "No. Everyone have a seat. Sit down. Goodbye", and put the treats behind my back or up on a shelf as a symbolic gesture. I would have waited until everyone say down and then laid into them in a normal tone of voice (kids do get quiet when they sense they are in trouble or something interesting is about to happen!). "I bought you treats with my own money because I was so proud of the way you ___. But then I saw so many disrespectful behaviors. What did I see that was not okay?" and call on the kids to tell me what they did wrong, because they KNOW better! "Exactly. So you KNOW what you did was rude and you chose to do it anyway. I can't give anyone a treat after that sort of behavior. I'll be watching to see things go during math. If I see people listening when I am talking, using the materials the right way, and cleaning up quietly, I will think about giving you the treats then. Now, please take out your math textbooks".

I guarantee that if the teacher in the spectacle I witnessed had handled it something like that, her students would think twice next time she was rewarding them. They would still need reminders and guidance and postive reinforcement, including when she was ready to pass the treats out ("I'm going to call the quietest table to come up first for their treat. Watch as table 1 WALKS up to me, waits quietly in line, and walks back to their seat without saying a word except thank you- great job table 1"), but chaos of that magnitude would be in the past with a little more firmness.

It's not just what you say, but how you say it. I'm going to keep it real here: some children, especially in less affluent areas, do not understand anything less than yelling. So when a brand new teacher smiles and asks them firmly but kindly to do something, they think it's playtime. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF SOUNDING MEAN! Some posts from the chatboards at Teachers.Net says it best, in my opinion:

Post: Inner-City Yelling

Posted by Julia on 9/04/04

I'm in my first year of teaching math at a 90 percent African American, poor school. I am finding that the only way to get kids to really stop doing certain things (talking, getting out of their seats, not staying in line) is to issue a loud directive. In other words, I yell at them. I have tried saying "please sit down," writing checks on the board, implementing class procedures, and calling home. But, my students seem to respond best to verbal aggression. This is the way that the other teachers and their families interact with them. Here is my problem. I feel like my students go from being yelled at when they are home to being yelled at when they are at school. No one ever models what a cooperative relationship looks like or what it means to have self-control. When I have raised this issue with other teachers, they say that this is a cultural difference and that African American kids just respond better to loud commands than requests. But, I am tired of screaming. This is not the type of person I am or the type of teacher I want to be. Please advice me of what I can do to actually teach appropriate behavior instead of scaring student into obeying. Thank you in advance for your help,
Julia

Re: Inner-City Yelling
Posted by Donna music/TN on 9/04/04

First of all, you're not scaring them into behaving. I teach in an inner city school as well, and until they are retrained to other signals, things below a certain volume level just pass as being below the radar. The only one scared by the yelling is you, because in the culture you were raised in, loud volumes are associated with fear. Similarly, if they're "yelling" at you, chances are good they're really just trying to communicate-but it comes off as a hostile attack if you're not used to it. Humor is the best defuser of this (Ouch--hey, guys, you're hurting this old lady's ears-could you turn down the volume and try again?).

You must retrain them into other signals. I use a 5 countdown, because it has both the visual and auditory components. Other teacher use chime trees, a whistle, bells, etc. Start using it when they're already relatively quiet, and you can praise them for following directions (if this sounds like training an animal, you're on the right track). The key is to use one, and use it consistently (another reason I stick with the 5 countdown is that I can do it when I have nothing else physically there-like on cafeteria duty. You are fighting against what they hear and see at home, but you can teach school behaviors and responses. The inner city Aftrican-American culture is very direct and plainspoken. The more you're used to the culture, the easier you'll find it. Not to necessarily do things that way, but to present things to make a happy medium. Obviously we can't have 30 people all with a volume level of 9 all the time in a classroom. But we can understand that it's not hostile, not a threat, and not something requiring punishment, only training into school behaviors. I suggest reading "Other People's Children" by Lisa Delphit.

Re: Inner-City Yelling
Posted by Hilteach on 9/15/04

The first thing I'm going to say is I'm African-American. The second thing I'm going to say is, I'm not offended by what you're saying...

What you think is scaring them might not be scaring them at all. I have a very low tolerance for noise. When I say low, I mean _low_, I can hear a mouse pee on cotton across the room. The first thing I tell my kids is: I don't want to hear what you're talking about. Work out hand signals for things. Bathroom, one finger. I need to get out of my seat, two fingers. I have a question, three fingers. Keep it simple. They'll get it after a week or two. When someone blurts out "I gotta go to the bathroom." You say, "I didn't see that signal." When they throw that one finger in your face, say "I want to see if you can remember it in fifteen minutes, try again then." When someone asks to go to the bathroom, and then I see a forest of silent index fingers, no more bathroom for a half hour for everyone. They'll forget.

What I also do is sometimes step outside of the room for about ten seconds. Listen, they may not be as loud as you think. You must understand the concept of an active classroom. I had to do it today. I pulled a kid out to be objective as possible. I asked her, where's the noise coming from? She pointed to the class across the hall. You couldn't hear my class at all and both my doors were opened! When I walked in, I'm thinking: It sounds like a party in here! Outside, no noise from my room.

Once you get some signals going, incorporate some sass and rhythm. Doing group activities? It's going to get noisy. I have seven groups of five! You need their attention, don't do clap, clap, clap...do clap, clap, clap..clap-clap, clap-clap, clapclapclakleclapclap. Snap, snap.

When you're talking to one student, and another student answers: Turn around quick (point that finger) say, "I wasn't talking to you." Go back to who you were talking to, "Like I was saying...." React quickly.

I almost never raise my voice. Sometimes, I just smile at a kid and they'll stop what they're doing cold. Last year I read, "A Series of Unfortunate Events" to them. Every time, I smiled, they would say "Count Olaf's smiling!! Stop!" They would stop. I didn't get offended that I was branded "Count Olaf", I connected it to Language Arts, "Great! You guys are connecting the literature to your lives, good readers do that."

This year I hear, "You're the first teacher that didn't yell at us."

Yelling is unnecessary, when they get loud, speak lower. That will freak them out. If you go too low follow it up with a consequence. Five or ten minutes of them sitting quietly at the end of the day works wonders. Conversely, five or ten minutes of free time at the end of the day when they are quiet works wonders too! Compliment them when they're working quietly, "I see LaShondra, doing her work without making a peep. That's what I like!" Watch two talking kids pipe down and look for the recognition. "I see DeShawn, working quietly, I didn't forget you kid!"

This works for kids in the seventh grade. I've had chatty kids, previous teachers have told me were going to be a BIG problem on this plan. It works.

You have to meet your students where they are at. If they are used to yelling, don't be afraid to raise your voice at times until they can respond to the methods of communication that you feel are more respectful. I don't mean screaming at your kids- I mean using a loud, authoritative voice. A lot of teachers don't want to speak loudly and firmly because it's not fun to do and they don't want to do it. There's a lot of things in teaching we don't want to do but have to in order to reach students with a diversity of needs! Disciplining is not fun. IT IS EXHAUSTING staying on them for every single behavior for every second of the day. It's the second month of school as I write this and I still seldom go more than a few minutes without having to get somebody back on task- no talking, keep working, you can do it, I love how you're taking care of our books, stay in your seat, great job walking, what's the rule about pencils?. I can either get lazy or I can enforce my rules and enjoy the continuing payoffs. DON'T GIVE UP! They are going to take a few weeks to settle in and will need constant reminders and reinforcement.

Never under-estimate the importance of reinforcing behavioral expectations throughout the year and

Here's an example of choosing procedure practice over punishment: Today, I had the kids doing their word wall work in their journals. It is the 5th week of school. We have practiced DAILY where to write: on the page that says Word Walls for Sept. 13-17. They *should* all know that they do not use a new blank page every day because it wastes paper. So of course, I saw a child who had started on a new page just seconds after I reminded the kids where to write. Now, kids are never going to be perfect and we'll never have the whole class 100% on task all the time, but teachers aren't perfect either and sometimes we lose it! I wanted to scream, "What did I just say!?! We've gone over and over this for 5 weeks! Why don't you follow directions! LISTEN!!!!". Fortunately I was able to control myself because that obviously would have been embarassing for the child and just plain ineffective because the child still wouldn't know what to do. I took a deep breath and reminded myself that he was not purposely disobeying- even if he wasn't listening to my directions, it wouldn't have mattered if he had known the procedure. Clearly he needed more practice with this. If he's not going to listen, maybe I could at least put him on auto-pilot eventually for routine tasks! :-) So I said, "Which page should you be doing this on? A new page? Okay, so where should you be doing it? Let's find it" and I stood at his desk and waited until he found it. This is the life of a primary-grade teacher: repeating and rephrasing and reinforcing and reminding EVERY SINGLE DAY until the last day of school (and I assure you, they'll still need reminders in June about how to walk in the hallways and to turn in their homework everyday!)

What follows are some posts from Teachers.Net during the beginning of the 2005-2005 school year. I was posting back and forth with some beginning, inner-city teachers who were really struggling. I was trying to find the common denominators in their situations: what were they doing that wasn't working? And what qualities were they missing? Their responsiveness was incredible, and I think all of us learned a lot about teaching challenging populations. These posts, along with my own experiences and observations, are what led me to the conclusions above. The posts are not an easy read, but if you've hung in this far, you must be pretty desperate for something, ANYTHING, to gain some control in your classroom and begin to enjoy instead of despise your job. I hope that what follows will help you reflect on your practice and enable you to experience success in the classroom. Be encouraged! :-)

Re: Jen- could these be the reasons why it didn't work out?
Posted by AngelaS on 9/29/04

[NOTE: I WROTE THIS IN RESPONSE TO A TEACHER NAMED JEN WHO HAD QUIT HER JOB TEACHING HIGH SCHOOL MATH IN A HIGH-POVERTY SCHOOL BECAUSE SHE WAS NOT ABLE TO CONTROL THE STUDENTS' BEHAVIOR].

Jen, first let me say that I am sorry it didn't work out, but I am glad you got out while you are still sane. Let us know about which job you take... can you apply elsewhere in the school system?

I don't know you but we just had an IDENTICAL situation at our school (inner city)- enthusiastic, loving teacher who was fresh out of college and had no control over her kids. The principal handled it the same way- was not able to help her and after a few chances forced her to resign or be terminated.

I don't know if this sounds like you, but I'll tell you what I observed with this teacher. Anytime another adult was around, the kids listened (more or less, of course). I went in one day to help with dismissal and it wasn't hard to get them in order, but as soon as I turned my back, and I mean IMMEDIATELY, they got out of line, started talking- one even sat down at her desk. Everyone told the teacher what to do and showed her how to do it, but she just couldn't do it.

I wish I had done this for her, but I wasn't able to find the time to articulate to her what she was not doing. I want to do that for you, and maybe you'll relate a little. You won't see any of this in college textbooks.

My opinion about this intangible something that the teacher did not have is: a firm, strong, loud voice; the ability to show a tough demeanor; a good 'teacher look', and consistency with rules.

The rules must be followed at all times and kids should know (because they've seen you do it) that you'll go to any lengths to make sure they follow the rules. Ex: whipping out the cell phone to call mom in class, buzzing the office to stop a child who left the room without permission, telling a child to leave your room after repeated disruptions (and calling security or admin if they refuse to go), etc. If you give them a consequence and they ignore it, you have to follow through. This is your reputation at stake.

The teacher at my school gave directions but had no techniques for making sure they were followed except for repeated begging and giving stickers every 15 minutes (literally) to the kids who did behave. She was not able to raise her voice above their voices when needed. When she gave directions, it was soft and phrased positively ALL THE TIME. She talked TOO much and the kids tuned her out. They responded much better to a serious "Pick it up, please." than her "Johnny, would you please help take care of our classroom by picking up the paper you just dropped? Great job, Johnny. Thank you for being a good part of our class". That kind of talk can NOT be used for every single direction given, not with these kids, anyway.

She needed to get an attitude in her voice at times, some sassiness: "ExCUSE me, if *I* am talking, YOU are listening." followed by a three or four second silent stare. And her tone sounded like she was pleading, like she was hoping that they would listen, rather than conveying that there was no choice, when she told them to do something they WOULD do it, and she had a big 'bag of tricks' up her sleeve to make sure they would. Her tone needed to convey that she would find out what it would take to get them to behave and then follow through- some kids need firm reminders, some need to be called last to line up or miss out on an activity, some need to have security escort them to the principal's office. Her tone did not convey that she was going to follow through all the way.

As far as demeanor goes, I do not smile when my students misbehave. My face gets very, very serious, my eyes stone cold. I can be smiling as I teach my lesson then I narrow my eyes and lower my voice to address a child who is playing around in a voice that is intended to scare them (if the child is one who needs that), then a split second later I smile at the class again and finish my sentence. At first I felt like a schizophrenic but I saw myself on videotape once and it doesn't look
that way at all. It's like, oh, happy enthusiastic teacher because kids are learning, tough teacher with the one kid disrupting that, but not taking it out on the whole class- they get the same smile and enthusiasm as before the reprimand. It is the 'teacher look' that says I mean business. This teacher did not have one. Her face showed that she was begging and hoping, not instructing.

She also did not get in her kids faces when reprimanding them. I have a handful of kids who tune me out if I don't bend over to their eye level and say what I have to say. Calling it from across the room or two feet higher when I stand next to them doesn't cut it. By not doing this when all the other adults in the school were doing that with her kids, she was communicating a weakness of sorts, as if she is afraid of what they would do if she were too close. These are CHILDREN. I refuse to fear a child. And even if I did, I wouldn't let them know it!

This may sound harsh if you do not teach in the inner city- there are schools in which I would disregard almost everything I wrote above (except for the teacher look!). I wouldn't be surprised if someone flamed me for not caring about kids or hating my job or something. But the truth is, this is what it takes for me to maintain control of some classrooms. All of the successful teachers I know in inner cities would more or less agree with everything I have written.

And of course, you have to earn their respect by showing that you genuinely care about them as individuals- greeting them each morning by name, returning their hugs (if appropriate), listening and smiling when they talk, etc. But most teachers whose kids walk all over them have the niceness thing down. They know how to show kids they care. They just can't get the kids to stop taking advantage of that fact.

I can't remember where you said you were teaching... do any of the things I talked about above sound like they applied to you? You did the right thing when you refused to let them leave until they cleaned up the calculators, but I can't believe they pushed you out of the way! My guess is that you might recognize yourself somewhere in what I wrote??

Please write back- I want to know what you think of my theory here... I really want to pinpoint the problem so that next time I see it happening (and I know I will!), maybe I can help more. But right now, I can't articulate what the missing ingredients are. I'm interested in any and all opinions and perspectives- WHY don't kids listen to certain teachers?

Re: Jen- could these be the reasons why it didn't work out?
Posted by jen on 9/29/04

[NOTE: HERE'S HER RESPONSE TO ME. HER WILLINGNESS TO HONESTLY EXAMINE AND REFLECT ON HER TEACHING PRACTICE HAS ME CONVINCED THAT SHE HAS FOUND OR WILL ONE DAY FIND A POSITION IN WHICH SHE CAN BE SUCCESSFUL- WHAT AN AMAZING INDIVIDUAL!].

Hi AngelaS,
You know, you're so right about mostly everything you said! I mean, I totally see a lot of what I did wrong in what you pointed out... let me comment in caps (no flaming, I promise!)

On 9/29/04, AngelaS wrote:
> Jen, first let me say that I am sorry it didn't work out, but I am glad you got out while you are still sane. Let us know about which job you take... can you apply elsewhere in the school system?
> I FEEL GOOD ABOUT MY DECISION, BUT A BIT REGRETFUL BECAUSE I THINK I DID REACH SOME KIDS. MY PRINCIPAL TOLD ME TODAY THAT WHEN SHE WENT TO EACH CLASSROOM AND SAID I WOULD NO LONGER BE THERE, SOME WERE VERY UPSET AND ASKED WHAT HAPPENED AND IF I WAS OKAY. THIS MADE ME CRY. ONE OF MY FAVORITES EVEN WANTS ME TO EMAIL HER. SO THEY DIDN'T ALL HATE ME! I KNOW IT'S NOT ABOUT LIKE OR HATE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO THINK SOME DID THINK I WAS THERE FOR THEM AND TRIED THE BEST I COULD... ANYWAY, I DON'T THINK FOR RIGHT NOW I WANT TO WORK IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM - I NEED TO GET A CLEAR HEAD AND SEE WHAT WENT WRONG AND WHAT I WANT TO DO. I'M DEBATING WHETHER TO TRY FOR A DISTRICT NEXT YEAR THAT IS MORE OF A FIT WITH MY PERSONALITY AND BACKGROUND (AND I THINK I WILL SUB IN MANY DISTRICTS TO REALLY CHECK THEM OUT - SOMETHING I NEVER GOT TO DO BEFORE BECAUSE MY SCHOOL SCHEDULE NEVER GAVE ME A FULL DAY FREE TO SUB). THE OTHER OPTION IS TO TEACH IN A COMMUNITY COLLEGE, OR EVEN GET A PH.D. AND BECOME A COLLEGE PROF. I'M CHECKING INTO BOTH.

> I don't know you but we just had an IDENTICAL situation at our school (inner city)- enthusiastic, loving teacher who was fresh out of college and had no control over her kids. The principal handled it the same way- was not able to help her and after a few chances forced her to resign or be terminated.
>SO WHAT HAPPENED - DID SHE QUIT? A LOT OF TEACHERS AT MY SCHOOL WHO I RAN INTO TODAY - I HAD TO GO THERE TWICE TO RETURN THINGS AND CLEAN MY CLASSROOM, WHICH WAS TOUGH - SAID IT JUST WASN'T THE RIGHT FIT FOR ME BUT THAT I HAD WHAT IT TOOK AND COULD BE A GREAT TEACHER IN A DISTRICT MORE APPROPRIATELY SUITED FOR ME. I TEND TO AGREE WITH THAT. I'M NOT INTO BLAMING - ALTHOUGH IT MAY SEEM THAT WAY - BUT I THINK I JUST DO NOT KNOW HOW TO RELATE TO THE TYPES OF KIDS I MET HERE AT ALL. PERHAPS I COULD LEARN, BUT I KEEP FONDLY RECALLING MY STUDENT TEACHING EXPERIENCE IN A WEALTHIER DISTRICT. THE WORST KIDS WERE ANGELS COMPARED TO THESE. I NEVER SAW THERE AT ALL WHAT I SAW HERE. THINGS WERE WELL-MANAGED, THERE WAS SCHOOL SPIRIT, MOST KIDS HAD AN INKLING THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING BEYOND HIGH SCHOOL, ETC...

> I don't know if this sounds like you, but I'll tell you what I observed with this teacher. Anytime another adult was around, the kids listened (more or less, of course). I went in one day to help with dismissal and it wasn't hard to get them in order, but as soon as I turned my back, and I mean IMMEDIATELY, they got out of line, started talking- one even sat down at her desk. Everyone told the teacher what to do and showed her how to do it, but she just couldn't do it.
>YEP, SAME HERE. EVERY TEACHER GAVE ME ADVICE, AND I TRIED TO FOLLOW IT, BUT IT JUST DIDN'T WORK. I HAD LOST THE RESPECT (ACTUALLY NEVER GAINED IT), SO WHAT I TRIED WAS USELESS WITHOUT THAT.... IT WAS ALREADY A LOSING BATTLE, I REALLY THINK. THIS HAPPENED TOO WHEN OTHERS, LIKE MY MENTOR AND THE AP WOULD COME IN, WHICH THEY DID FROM TIME TO TIME. THE KIDS WERE ANGELS WITH THEM, AND THEN AS SOON AS THEY'D LEAVE (TELLING ME LATER I DID A WONDERFUL JOB, OF COURSE, AND THAT THE KIDS MUST REALLY BE GETTING THE MESSAGE AND SHAPING UP), THEY WOULD BE UNRULY AGAIN!

> I wish I had done this for her, but I wasn't able to find the time to articulate to her what she was not doing. I want to do that for you, and maybe you'll relate a little. You won't see any of this in college textbooks.

>SOMETIMES IT'S HARD TO ARTICULATE THIS, BUT YOU DID A GREAT JOB FOR ME. PERHAPS YOU COULD SEND HER THIS, AS WELL AS MY POSTS ON MY EXPERIENCES, OR EVEN PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH HER (----@aol.com) - WE COULD SHARE BATTLE STORIES AND LEARN FROM EACH OTHER, PERHAPS. I THINK THE OTHER TEACHERS WERE GETTING FRUSTRATED AND EVEN AVOIDING ME BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT I WASN'T FOLLOWING THEIR ADVICE. I REALLY WAS, BUT IT DIDN'T WORK FOR ME. EVERY DAY, I FELT I HAD TO TOTALLY REINVENT MYSELF AND EVERYTHING AND DO SOMETHING MAGICAL TO GET THEM COOPERATING - AND IT WAS THOROUGHLY EXHAUSTING! THE ONLY THING I DIDN'T TRY, THAT THEY SUGGESTED, WAS SITTING DOWN AND TALKING WITH THE KIDS. I SORT OF DID THIS, BUT IT DIDN'T WORK THE WAY I WANTED, OF COURSE. BUT I WAS AFRAID THAT THIS WOULD BE ADMITTING DEFEAT OR TOTAL LOSS OF CONTROL - I WANTED TO COMPROMISE WITH THEM TO GET THEM FEELING BETTER ABOUT THE CLASS AND ME, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY'D JUST TOTALLY TAKE ADVANTAGE. I MEAN, I STARTED TO REWARD KIDS WITH CANDY, AS MY PRINCIPAL SUGGESTED, AND THEN THEY COMPLAINED THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE KINDS I HAD, OR THEY WANTED TWO, OR SOMETHING WAS TOO CHEWY! I'M SERIOUS - GIVING IN WAS GETTING NOWHERE, AND BEING TOTALLY PUNITIVE AND FIRM WAS ALIENATING THEM AND CAUSING THEM TO REBEL FURTHER. NEITHER WAY WON ANYTHING WITH THEM.

> My opinion about this intangible something that the teacher did not have is: a firm, strong, loud voice; the ability to show a tough demeanor; a good 'teacher look', and consistency with rules.
>I DID HAVE THE LOUD VOICE, THE TOUGH DEMEANOR I DON'T THINK I HAD. I THINK THEY SAW RIGHT THROUGH ME - THEY TESTED ME WITH EVERYTHING, AND IN MANY SITUATIONS, I WASN'T SURE. I MEAN, IF A KID SAID HIS BATHROOM LEAVE WAS A TOTAL EMERGENCY, AND ESPECIALLY THE GIRLS WITH THEIR FEMALE ISSUES -WHICH THEY ALWAYS SEEMED TO HAVE - WHAT WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO? NOT LET THEM GO AND THEN LET THEM WET THEMSELVES? SOME JUST LEFT ANYWAY WHEN I DID SAY NO. THERE WERE SO MANY GRAY AREAS I HAD NO IDEA HOW TO HANDLE, SO I WENT WITH MY INSTINCTS, AND THEN IT WAS NEVER RIGHT AND I WASN'T CONSISTENT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BE TOTALLY CONSISTENT WHEN THERE'S SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES AND SO FORTH... KIDS ARE INDIVIDUALS, AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE THEM. I HAD ONE KID, WHO WAS SPECIAL ED AND HAD A LOT OF EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS. HE WOULD FLY OFF THE HANDLE IN A MOMENT'S NOTICE. SO, SURE, AND PERHAPS THIS WAS WRONG, I TREATED HIM MORE DELICATELY. PERHAPS HE WAS TAKING ADVANTAGE BY THREATENING HIS TANTRUMS, BUT I FELT IT WAS BETTER TO BE A BIT MORE LENIENT WITH HIM AND AT LEAST KEEP HIM THERE FEELING OKAY THAN BEING PUNITIVE AND PISSING HIM OFF AND HAVING HIM STORM OUT, ETC... THESE SITUATIONS, I DID NOT KNOW AT ALL HOW TO HANDLE... SO MANY INDIVIDUAL NEEDS THAT ALL CONFLICTED - I TRIED SO HARD TO BE CONSISTENT, BUT IT WAS THE MOST DIFFICULT THING OF ALL...

> The rules must be followed at all times and kids should know (because they've seen you do it) that you'll go to any lengths to make sure they follow the rules. Ex: whipping out the cell phone to call mom in class, buzzing the office to stop a child who left the room without permission, telling a child to leave your room after repeated disruptions (and calling security or admin if they refuse to go), etc. If you give them a consequence and they ignore it, you have to follow through. This is your reputation at stake.
> AS FAR AS THE PHONING THE PARENT DURING CLASS WHEN THE KID WAS MISBEHAVING - I NEVER DID THIS. A LOT OF TEACHERS DO, BUT I FEARED EITHER THE PARENT WOULD NOT BE REACHABLE AND IT WOULD BACKFIRE, OR THE KID WOULD START TELLING THE PARENT HOW AWFUL I WAS IN FRONT OF THE CLASS, OR THE PHONE WOULDN'T WORK (A LOT OF PHONE NUMBERS LISTED IN OUR RECORDS WERE DISCONNECTED - IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH PARENTS, I FOUND OUT). NOW, I TRIED TO FOLLOW UP WITH CONSEQUENCES - THEY REFUSED TO COME TO MY DETENTIONS - THEY'D SAY SO IN VERY UNPLEASANT TERMS OR THEY JSUT WOULD NOT SHOW UP. SO THEN I'D CALL HOME, AND BARELY GOT A PARENT. THEN I'D REFER TO THE OFFICE FOR IN-SCHOOL DETENTION, OF WHICH THEY RARELY FOLLOWED THROUGH ON. THEN I WAS SUPPOSED TO ARRANGE A BEHAVIOR CONTRACT - EVERYONE IN THE SCHOOL HAD A DIFFERENT IDEA OF WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES SHOULD BE - THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ANY SORT OF POLICY IN PLACE, AND THINGS WERE TOTALLY INCONSISTENT, WHICH DROVE ME UP THE WALL. IT WAS SO DIFFICULT AND TIME CONSUMING TO DO ALL OF THESE STEPS FOR EVERY INFRACTION FOR SO MANY KIDS. FOR LIKE TWO WEEKS, I GOT SO BOGGED DOWN WITH ALL OF THIS. MY MENTOR SAID I HAD TO DO THAT - AND WHEN I SAID IT WASN'T WORKING, HE GOT HUFFY WITH ME AND SAID, FINE, DON'T FOLLOW MY ADVICE! THE PRINCIPAL THOUGHT IT RIDICULOUS TO SPEND ALL OF MY TIME CALLING PARENTS. SO, THEN THEY SAID I COULD JUST SEND THEM TO THE OFFICE, WHICH I THOUGHT MADE ME LOOK BAD. SO THEN, THE AP AND I AGREED HE'D GET A LIST OF NAMES FOR IN-SCHOOL DETENTION AFTER EACH CLASS, BUT DID HE FOLLOW UP AND DID THEY ACTUALLY COME? NO - ONLY LIKE TWO! I TRIED TO GIVE CONSEQUENCES, BUT OBVIOUSLY IT DIDN'T WORK AT ALL!

> The teacher at my school gave directions but had no techniques for making sure they were followed except for repeated begging and giving stickers every 15 minutes (literally) to the kids who did behave.
>PERHAPS I DIDN'T EITHER. I'D GET IN THEIR FACE, AS YOU SAY, AND STARE THEM DOWN. THIS DID WORK SOMETIMES, BUT THEN THEY'D DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN WHEN I WENT AWAY! I NEVER BEGGED, AND I DID POSITIVE REWARDS (CANDY AND SIEGEL STARS FOR FREE HOMEWORK PASSES), BUT THEN THEY STARTED DEMANDING THEM FOR EVERYTHING. "OH, I DID THIS, DO I GET A SIEGEL STAR?" IT GOT OUT OF HAND - AND THEN I STOPPED DOING THEM FOR AWHILE...

>She was not able to raise her voice above their voices when needed.
I DO HAVE A LOUD VOICE, BUT I ALWAYS FELT LIKE I WAS YELLING INSTEAD OF RAISING IT ENOUGH - IT WAS THAT LOUD WITH OVER THIRTY TEENS ALL TALKING! I TRIED THE STOP AND WAIT, AND THAT NEVER WORKED. I TRIED THE PROXIMITY THING, AND THAT ALSO DID NOT WORK. DO YOU SEE I DID TRY A VARIETY OF TECHNIQUES? MY PRINCIPAL SAID PERHAPS I SHOULD DO THE SAME THINGS AND NOT CHANGE THEM ALL THE TIME, BUT WHY WOULD I KEEP DOING SOMETHING THAT HAD NO EFFECT? WOULD IT SUDDENLY START? HMM...

> When she gave directions, it was soft and phrased positively ALL THE TIME. She talked TOO much and the kids tuned her out. They responded much better to a serious "Pick it up, please." than her "Johnny, would you please help take care of our classroom by picking up the paper you just dropped? Great job, Johnny. Thank you for being a good part of our class". That kind of talk can NOT be used for every single direction given, not with these kids, anyway.
>I THINK PERHAPS I DID THIS TOO. I BOUGHT AN EGG TIMER AND TRIED TO KEEP THEM ON TRACK WITH THIS - MY PRINCIPAL TOLD ME TO DO THIS. I THINK SHE AND I BOTH ARE WAY TOO INFLUENCED BY ALL THE BOOKS ON THE MARKET THAT ARE GEARED PRIMARILY FOR YOUNGER KIDS AND SAY TO SAY STUFF LIKE THAT. I TRIED TO USE PLEASE AND THANK-YOU ALL THE TIME AT FIRST, AND THEN STOPPED IT AND WAS MORE FIRM. BUT AS I WAS HANDLING ONE THING AND GETTING THAT UNDER CONTROL, IT'S LIKE FIVE OTHER THINGS WERE DEVELOPING! IT WAS EXHAUSTING, KEEPING YOUR EYES ON EVERYTHING AND HANDLING EVERYTHING, PLUS ALL THE INDIVIDUAL ISSUES, HELPING KIDS WHO DID CARE AND WERE TRYING, ETC... I DIDN'T HAVE YET - AND NEED TO DEVELOP - THAT WITHITNESS THEY KEEP TALKING ABOUT. MY PRINCIPAL TOLD ME INSTEAD OF CIRCULATING AT HOMEWORK TIME AND TURNING MY BACK ON ANYONE, I SHOULD SIT AT MY DESK AND HAVE ONE PERSON COME UP AT A TIME. SO, I TRIED THIS, BUT THEN THE PERSON WHO CAME UP TO ME WAS ALWAYS SHORTCHANGED BECAUSE I HAD TO GO HANDLE THIS OR THAT. I DIDN'T WANT TO YELL ACROSS THE ROOM AT WHOEVER TO STOP DOING IT, OR THAT WOULD CAUSE A CONFRONTATION IN FRONT OF PEERS... IT'S ALL SO CONFUSING, TO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ALL THESE LITTLE THINGS THAT TURN INTO BIG ONES!

> She needed to get an attitude in her voice at times, some sassiness: "ExCUSE me, if *I* am talking, YOU are listening." followed by a three or four second silent stare.
OH, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID ALL THE TIME! THAT EXACT SENTENCE. THEN, THEY STARTED MIMICKING (SP?) ME! "EXCUSE ME!" "EXCUSE ME!" "STOP THAT" AND SO FORTH... I WOULD JUST GIVE THEM MY STONE-COLD STARE, AND THEY'D GET PLEASURE FROM KNOWING THEY'D TICK ME OFF. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE NOT TO SHOW ANY EMOTION IN ONE'S FACE, I DON'T KNOW. SOME SAY TO NOT SHOW ANY EMOTION, OTHERS SAY TO LET THEM KNOW THEIR BEHAVIOR ANGERS YOU!

>And her tone sounded like she was pleading, like she was hoping that they would listen, rather than conveying that there was no choice, when she told them to do something they WOULD do it, and she had a big 'bag of tricks' up her sleeve to make sure they would.
>I HAD NO BAG OF TRICKS - I WAS OUT OF IDEAS. I TRIED EVERYTHING I COULD THINK OF, EVERYTHING I WAS TOLD TO TRY, AND TO NO AVAIL.

>Her tone needed to convey that she would find out what it would take to get them to behave and then follow through- some kids need firm reminders, some need to be called last to line up or miss out on an activity, some need to have security escort them to the principal's office. Her tone did not convey that she was going to follow through all the way.
>YEP, I THINK THEY KNEW I WOULDN'T FOLLOW THROUGH, BECAUSE I WAS SO THOROUGHLY OVERWHELMED AT THE FOLLOWING-THROUGH PART. I MEAN, HOW MUCH TIME AM I SUPPOSED TO SPEND ON THAT? I WOULD SPEND HOURS CALLING PARENTS, WRITING LETTERS, DOCUMENTING, ETC... AND EVERYTIME SOMEONE WOULD ACT IN A WAY THAT CAUSED A CONSEQUENCE (WHICH WAS MORE TIMES PER CLASS PERIOD THAN I COULD EVEN COUNT), I WOULD THINK, OH GOD, NOW I HAVE TO START A FILE ON THIS KID TOO, AND CALL HIS MOM, AND ALL THAT! I WAS DROWNING IN THIS, AND THEN FEELING HORRIBLY GUILTY ABOUT NOT CALLING THEM AS MUCH AS I THOUGHT I SHOULD. AND THE NUMBERS NEVER WORKED, AND THEY NEVER RETURNED MY CALL, AND THE FEW I DID REACH WERE NON-COMMITAL!

> As far as demeanor goes, I do not smile when my students misbehave. My face gets very, very serious, my eyes stone cold. I can be smiling as I teach my lesson then I narrow my eyes and lower my voice to address a child who is playing around in a voice that is intended to scare them (if the child is one who needs that), then a split second later I smile at the class again and finish my sentence. At first I felt like a schizophrenic but I saw myself on videotape once and it doesn't look that way at all. It's like, oh, happy enthusiastic teacher because kids are learning, tough teacher with the one kid disrupting that, but not taking it out on the whole class- they get the same smile and enthusiasm as before the reprimand. It is the 'teacher look' that says I mean business. This teacher did not have one. Her face showed that she was begging and hoping, not instructing.
>I THINK I GOT MINE DOWN, BUT THE CLASS WAS RUNNING RAMPANT AT THAT POINT, SO THEY DIDN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. I THINK THEY GOT JOY KNOWING THEY ANGERED ME OR MADE ME SERIOUS.

> She also did not get in her kids faces when reprimanding them. I have a handful of kids who tune me out if I don't bend over to their eye level and say what I have to say.
>I TRIED THIS, BUT I FELT IT WAS VERY CONFRONTATIONAL AT THE SAME TIME. THREATENING, AND I'M NOT SURE THIS WAS A GOOD THING... I FELT LIKE AT ANY TIME, THEY WOULD LASH OUT AT ME PHYSICALLY, AND HONESTLY I WAS AFRAID OF SOME OF THEM.

>Calling it from across the room or two feet higher when I stand next to them doesn't cut it. By not doing this when all the other adults in the school were doing that with her kids, she was communicating a weakness of sorts, as if she is afraid of what they would do if she were too close. These are CHILDREN. I refuse to fear a child. And even if I did, I wouldn't let them know it!
> I THINK AT FIRST I USED AN OVERHEAD PROJECTOR, AND I WOULD CALL OUT TO KIDS TO STOP THEIR BEHAVIOR, AND THIS WAS BAD BECAUSE IT WAS IN FRONT OF EVERYONE, PUTTING THEM ON THE DEFENSIVE IN FRONT OF FRIENDS. THEY HAD TO SAVE FACE. WHEN I REALIZED THIS, I MOVED THE SEATS TO ROWS AND COLUMNS AND GOT RID OF THE OVERHEAD, WORKING INSTEAD FROM THE BOARD. THAT WAY, I COULD MOVE AROUND MORE. HOWEVER, I DIDN'T FEEL I COULD MOVE AROUND STILL AS MUCH BECAUSE I HAD TO BE UP AT THE BOARD WRITING, AND THEN I HAD TO TURN MY BACKS ON SOME OF THEM (THE OVERHEAD AT LEAST I WAS ALWAYS FACING THEM), AND THAT'S WHEN EVERYTHING WENT SOUTH. WHEN I STARTED USING THE BOARD, THE PAPER THROWING AND PEBBLE THROWING STARTED. ANOTHER METHOD I CONSIDERED THAT A TEACHER SUGGESTED WAS TO USE OVERHEADS ALL THE TIME THAT WERE PRE-TYPED OR WRITTEN. HOWEVER, I DON'T LIKE THAT WAY OF TEACHING MATH - I WANT KIDS TO SEE ME SOLVING AND WRITING PROBLEMS, NOT HAVING EVERY STEP JUST UP THERE FOR THEM TO COPY. IT'S NOT AS INTERACTIVE, IN MY OPINION. ANYWAY, SO I WAS STILL THINKING A LOT ABOUT THIS AND WHAT WAS THE BEST METHOD...

> This may sound harsh if you do not teach in the inner city- there are schools in which I would disregard almost everything I wrote above (except for the teacher look!). I wouldn't be surprised if someone flamed me for not caring about kids or hating my job or something. But the truth is, this is what it takes for me to maintain control of some classrooms. All of the successful teachers I know in inner cities would more or less agree with everything I have written.
>I DO AGREE WITH EVERY SINGLE THING YOU'VE SAID ACTUALLY, UPON SECOND REVIEW. I REALLY THINK YOU HAVE GREAT INSIGHT INTO EXACTLY WHAT WENT WRONG WITH ME. NOW, HOW TO FIX IT? I MEAN, HOW DO YOU DEVELOP THESE THINGS? IS IT WITH EXPERIENCE - HOW DID YOU HAVE IT? HOW DO OTHER FIRST-YEAR TEACHERS HAVE IT? WHAT CAN I DO TO GET IT? CAN YOU EVER LEARN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THE GRAY AREAS? THAT'S WHAT ALWAYS TRIPPED ME UP, I'M REALIZING. THE KID WHO WOULDN'T TAKE HIS HEADPHONES OFF BECAUSE THEY WERE ON HIS IEP - I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THAT YET, NOR KNOW HE WAS SPECIAL ED - WHAT WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO?

> And of course, you have to earn their respect by showing that you genuinely care about them as individuals- greeting them each morning by name, returning their hugs (if appropriate), listening and smiling when they talk, etc. But most teachers whose kids walk all over them have the niceness thing down. They know how to show kids they care. They just can't get the kids to stop taking advantage of that fact.
>I REALLY WAS TOO NICE AT THE BEGINNING. I WAS TRYING TO ESTABLISH THE RAPPORT BEFORE GETTING THE RESPECT - I DID THINGS IN THE REVERSE ORDER, AND THEY WALKED ALL OVER IT. THEN I FOUND IT HARD TO LIKE THEM OR CARE HOW THEY WERE DOING, THEN I FELT HORRIBLE ABOUT THAT!

> I can't remember where you said you were teaching... do any of the things I talked about above sound like they applied to you? You did the right thing when you refused to let them leave until they cleaned up the calculators, but I can't believe they pushed you out of the way! My guess is that you might recognize yourself somewhere in what I wrote??
> ABSOLUTELY, TO A TEE! I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU PINNED IT ALL DOWN SO ACCURATELY! REALLY, I HOPE YOU SHARE THIS WHOLE POST WITH THIS OTHER TEACHER, AND SERIOUSLY PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH HER - WE CAN LEARN AND COMPARE NOTES AND GET A LOT FROM SHARING... BY THE WAY, THE DISTRICT I WAS IN IS THE AREA THAT THE MOTHER LIVED IN DURING THE EMINEM MOVIE - "8 MILE" - IT IS A SUBURB OF DETROIT - NOT INNER-CITY, BUT CLOSE TO IT - AND THERE ARE SEVERAL TRAILER PARKS IN THE DISTRICT. MANY KIDS WERE BELOW THE POVERTY LINE - I DON'T KNOW IF THIS QUALIFIES REALLY AS INNER-CITY THOUGH SINCE THEY WEREN'T DETROIT KIDS...

> Please write back- I want to know what you think of my theory here... I really want to pinpoint the problem so that next time I see it happening (and I know I will!), maybe I can help more. But right now, I can't articulate what the missing ingredients are. I'm interested in any and all opinions and perspectives- WHY don't kids listen to certain teachers?
>GOOD QUESTION. IT IS ALL ABOUT STANCE. IT'S ABOUT CONFIDENCE. IT'S ABOUT KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE DOING. NOTHING PREPARED ME FOR ANY OF THIS - NONE OF MY TRAINING. I'M NOT TRYING TO BLAME, AND I AM A QUICK LEARNER, AND I DO HAVE AN OPEN MIND AND WANT TO CONSIDER ALL OPTIONS, BUT I JUST DIDN'T AND DO NOT HAVE THOSE SKILLS YET AND AM TRYING DESPERATELY TO DEVELOP THEM. THEY NEED TO REVAMP THE CLASSROOM MANAGEMENT COURSES IN COLLEGE OR SOMETHING AND GET SOME "TEACHERING" COURSES IN EXACTLY HOW TO TEACH AND ORGANIZE YOURSELF, ETC... I FEEL LIKE CALLING MY PROF IN COLLEGE, WHO WAS HORRIBLE AS AN INSTRUCTOR - SHE TALKED TO US FOR TWO HOURS A DAY ABOUT MOTIVATING STUDENTS AS WE WERE FALLING OUT OF OUR CHAIRS SOUND ASLEEP- AND SAYING, SO WHAT THEORY COULD YOU APPLY IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION!!! SOME JUST HAVE THE INSTINCT. I REALLY THOUGHT I HAD IT - I MEAN, I GOT SUCH POSITIVE FEEDBACK IN ALL OF MY TEACHING EXPERIENCES BEFORE THIS, FROM KIDS, ADMINISTRATORS, ETC... I THOUGHT I WAS A NATURAL, AND NOW I REALIZE, ALTHOUGH MY TEACHING IS DECENT (COULD ALWAYS USE IMPROVEMENT), IT DOESN'T MEAN A THING IF I CANNOT ESTABLISH ENOUGH CONTROL TO DO IT! AND THAT'S MY WEAKNESS, AND I PLAN ON REALLY REVIEWING WHAT I DID, TALKING TO AS MANY TEACHERS AND OTHERS FOR ADVICE, AND SUBBING TO GET MORE EXPERIENCE WITH TEENS AND GET DOWN THE TECHNIQUES I WILL NEED. AS FOR ALL THE BOOKS I'VE SPENT MONEY ON TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES, I GUESS THEY'LL MAKE GOOD FIRE KINDLING SOMEDAY!

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR INSIGHT AND RESPONSE! WHAT AN EYE-OPENER. FOREVER GRATEFUL, JEN :-)

Re: Jen- could these be the reasons why it didn't work out?
Posted by Another Jen on 9/30/04

Wow. What a great thread. I'm a college student and have many of these same problems during my lab experiences. I LOVE teaching (working one-on-one and with a small group usually), but with more than just a few children, I totally lose control. Part of the problem, I know, is that I am naturally a quiet person. It's great for working with shy students and individuals, but it's very difficult for me to get that loud, stern voice, simply because that's not me. I'm hoping and praying that when I have my own classroom, I can spend a lot of time teaching procedures, modelling appropriate and inappropriate behaviors and the like in order to eliminate most problems, but this is still one aspect of teaching that scares me! That is always the one thing that my cooperating teachers comment on- my quietness and lack of classroom management skills. Angela, do you have any advice for someone like me? How can I convey that "I mean business" attitude and still not feel like I'm stepping on any toes? (I don't feel like in my position as a college lab student that I should give kids consequences for not following rules- that since I'm not even student teaching yet, that I should leave it up to the classroom teacher. Does that make sense?)

Re: Jen- could these be the reasons why it didn't work out?
Posted by Lily on 9/30/04

I have to say that when you are a student teacher, you will not be able to practice classroom man. This is why most new teachers go into shock when it comes to getting their first classroom. I think it is really natural to be quiet and, mostly do a lot of observing when you are student teaching because it really isn't in your place to start becoming authoritative when you are not the teacher. I think in most cases after you have gone through the first six months in shock of how difficult it is to manage a class, a natural tough instinct will start to kick in. I was alawys quiet like you but then it became survival once I was in the classroom. But, don't use student teaching as your personal criteria because it is not authentic at all. I spent most of my time trying to please the teacher and did't even think about managing the class.

Re: Jen- could these be the reasons why it didn't work out?
Posted by I agree on 9/30/04

I totally agree with what Jen said about starting out too nice. I too was toldover and over in my ed classes about establishing rapport and a comfortableenvironment, etc. And now I have had to get tough because they are walking allover me. The last week I started getting mean--the teacher stare, more
consequences, pop quiz--and it is better. The kids still know I like them, but they also need to know I am in charge and I think it was confusing to them when I was too nice.

Re: Jen- could these be the reasons why it didn't work out?
Posted by Micki on 9/30/04

Now into my second month of real teaching, with only student teaching (and no subbing) behind me, I've become "mean."

I tried so hard not to be... but, I'm also a mom of two teens (god I feel old when I say that) and some of the "momness" has started slipping out. Plus, I have a principal who expects complete silence & calmness from my very low SES, innercity 2nd graders. So, much of what I do in the class as far as keeping them quiet is against my grain, and it bugs me on top of everything else.

What's funny, is how we can have a really bad day - like today - when the whole class gets nowhere because they're so chatty & I'm so angry... and we stop everything to "practice procedures" (which, by the way, I'm trying to do consistently but it still doesn't feel like it works!) The kids KNOW I'm mad. I don't smile, and I have to force myself to act interested in a lesson. But then, my little awful kids will walk by the room after school and look in at their mean old teacher with these big, huge smiles on their face yelling "Hi Mrs. P!!! Hi Mrs. P!!!" like they love me with all their hearts and like nothing happened.

And all of a sudden I'm not frowning anymore... but then the cycle starts all over again the next day!!! Arrggghhh!!!!

I feel JUST LIKE you do!! Niceness does not work and the principal expects the students to be very orderly (although she and I agree on this- it's not extreme like in your situation). I feel like the meanest person in the world, and then the kids give me hugs on the way out the door! It's absolutely amazing. I was so worried about this when I first started teaching that I gave surveys to my students to find out their attitudes towards me and school. I never had more than 1 child in each class say that they thought I was mean, unfair, or 'angry a lot' as opposed to 'happy most of the time'. Those surveys (which I still give, just to check in with the kids and show I care) were and are really reassuring to me when it's one of those days when it feels like all I do is nag.

Sometimes when my kids act like yours I just can't fake interest in the lessons like you can! I just tell them heads down, forget it, I'm not going to teach students who don't want to learn. They quiet down and I cool down, and we try it again a few minutes later. Or I'll say, fine, you want to talk over me, you must already know how to do this. You don't need me. Go ahead- pages 75-76 on your own. I'm not giving any help because when I tried to teach you, you wouldn't pay attention. I watch them struggle for a few minutes and feel like a horrible, bad person and then say, "How many of you would like for me to teach you how to do this?" and the majority always raise their hands. I then let them know that if they cannot show me respect, I won't teach, and review procedures (sound familiar? lol). Whether or not these would ever be recommended by college professors, I don't know. But they work. I'm a human being with feelings and limitations, and sometimes I am just stretched to my limits. It's either this or burn out and quit, and then where would the kids be with a sub? If I ever hear of something better, I'll let you know.

The other thing I have done these past few days that has been VERY effective is removing the disruptive child(ren) from the group. Now that seems obvious but I have been doing it in a different way. There's always a small core of students who just do not follow the rules no matter what- always talking, out of their seats, pushing in line, making farting noises and burping on purpose, taking things from other kids, interuppting you, etc. etc. I would let those kids get to me- stop my lesson to address them, and feel my blood pressure rise! Ignoring them would cause them to act worse.

So I realized one day as I started to get extremely frusterated during a lesson that 21 out of 23 kids were fully engaged and participating (minus some of them doing the typical kid stuff like playing with a pencil or something- you know). And I just decided (out loud) that I simply was not going to let these two kids put me in a bad mood because I was really enjoying that lesson and I could tell that the rest of the class was, too. The most disruptive one was put by the door where no one would be paying him any attention, and the less disruptive one was sent back to his desk from the carpet. And the lesson went beautifully from then on! Trying to be 'textbook' and PC by allowing the kids to stay on the rug was not working- I am tired of worrying about these trouble-makers' self-esteem when they are preventing the rest of the class from learning.

Why do you think half of these inner city kids are below grade level? A big part of it is that there are so many behavior problems, the teachers can't teach those who want to learn, and the teachers' hands are tied with discipline for fear of being sued. I have seen other teachers in my school stick kids by their doors or in corners (not noses in the corner or anything, just off to the side) and the admin has seen me do it as well, so if they don't mind, I'm going to keep doing what works. I think they are relieved I am not sending the children to the office, to tell the truth, because so many other kids are in there for far worse.

(Oh, and if they are noisy by the door, I ignore it first, then if I see the kids are distracted, I give a mean stare and get back to teaching, if it happens a third time I let them know they will be removed from the classroom if they disrupt my lesson again. Removal from the classroom is part of my behavior plan so parents are aware that I do this. Then, if they do anything else, I make a big serious production out of having to stop my lesson, apologizing profusely to the class for the child's misbehavior, and ask if they would mind waiting quietly for 2 minutes while I take ___ to Ms. __'s room. They all nod solemnly and I walk the kid to another teacher, usually someone really tough. I might send work with the child orjust have him or her sit there. It's not like there was any learning taking place when the child was in my classroom, anyway. Normally I just send the work home with a note explaining why it was not done in class.

But like you, the cycle does start all over again the nest day! I have been using more and more humor with the kids, now that we are into our eigth week and they know when I'm kidding and when I'm not. Like today two kids were talking when I called them to line up. I gave them a few seconds to stop but it kept going, and then another child joined the conversation. Most of the time I make them sit backdown, but today I just said to the class, "Do you think everybody will be able to line up without talking by June?" and smiled broadly. The kids laughed and assured me, yes, they would, but one boy said, "No- by December!". He thought that was much better than taking until June but of course I expected them to get it in August! We all laughed and then they were quiet. No lecture or punishment needed. I was glad I didn't do it.

Another humor example from today: I was getting ready to give them pens, which they were very excited about working with and had been anticipating for weeks. By now the kids know that as soon as I start talking, they are to close their mouths and listen. I shouldn't have to say put your hand on your head if you hear me, or clap out a rhytmn for them to clap back like I did in the beginning. They have gotten very good at this. Well, I was ready to announce the pens and told them I would be passing them out in one minute, so they should be finished with the assignment they were working on by then. It was a one-sentence announcement, and the whole class was listening by my second word. Except two girls who chatted the whole way through. The entire class heard them and was waiting silently to see what I would do next. I could have reprimanded them, punished them, lectured them, repeated the directions, or ask the class to repeat the directions. But instead I said in a kind of stage whisper, "They were talking and didn't hear my announcement. Don't tell them, okay? Let's keep it a secret... since you were listening, you know, but they'll just have to wait..." and smiled mysteriously. The class was very excited about this 'secret' and even the two girls were smiling because they knew I was not trying to embaress them. One little boy said, "See, you always have to listen when Ms. Powell is sayin something because you never know what she might be doing next and it could be something really good for you!". It was so cute! And I was so glad I didn't go into lecture mode... talk about spoiling everyone's good mood.

I couldn't have done that in the beginning, but as the year goes on, we can operate more and more on that level. Being silly with the kids really helps fight that mean teacher image I have in my head sometimes when I do have to raise my voice and get serious. I hope this makes sense. It's late and I've just kind of been rambling. I am really enjoying this thread because everyone can relate and no one is being judgemental. I really hope no one joins this thread with flames about how we run our classrooms. I've said it a million times- if you teach affluent students, you won't understand why it's neccesary and it's easy to judge those of us who work with kids who have only been disciplined by being yelled at and being beaten. Reasoning and politely requesting is not the way to earn respect in the beginning. More of that type of thing comes later (thank God- I don't think my vocal chords could take many more days like those first two weeks!! LOL!).

Hmmm... are you doing elem. or secondary? Is the lab school a preschool? You haven't started student teaching yet, these are the junior-level courses, right?

I'll try to think this out more once I know your background... I can say that I was MUCH quieter and more reserved during my student teaching. A lot of that was my age- I was 20 then, and I've done a lot of growing up since then and have become more confident in myself as people usually do with age. I also got more 'with-it' with experience. There just is no substitute! You'll look back a few years from now and marvel and how much you've grown as a teacher.

Some of it was trial by fire, too. When I student taught, it was in 'poverty neigborhood' as they called it, but it was kindergarten, and the teacher was not only exceptional but also extremely calm and quiet. The kids were used to responding to that, so when I showed up in January, she had already gotten them where they needed to be. My other ST experience was with very affluent kids who were AWFUL because the teacher was a former dentist who could not control the kids and let them run WILD. It was so bad I asked to get a new placement, but when told I could go, I opted to stay and take on the challenge. It went okay, but only because I immediately took the initative to implement a behavioral system (she had NONE!!!) with group points.

Transition times were still hell. I cried everyday and wanted to quit. It was such a shame because those kids were as soft as marshmallows but I was too intimidated by the teacher to really take control like I should have (what an irony- the kids weren't intimidated by her, just me!).

I took a job for 6 months in a private preschool teaching kids from affluent families. It looked like something right out of my college textbooks- singing songs for transitions, never yelling, talking with kids about choices when they misbehaved, you know the drill. So when I started my first 'real job' teaching HeadStart (PreK) in the inner city public school system, I broke down.

The busses were late or didn't show up, and I had THREE parents CUSS ME OUT in FRONT OF THE CLASS! The kids were running wild in the room while I fought back tears and tried to explain to these strangers that I was not a bus driver and therefore had no control over transportation. I finally got them all out, the kids in, and tried to settle them down when the two program directors walked in!!! I about lost it. They could see it all over my face and asked if I wanted them to take over the lesson. I nodded so I wouldn't start crying.

OK- a little racial background here because it is relevant. I am white. This is a 99.9 percent black neighborhood. Both program directors are black. Washington DC is still a very segregated place in many ways and there are a lot of racial tensions in some areas. In the private preschool, pretty much everybody- teachers, directors, and kids- were all white. (That's why it looked like a textbook classroom).

So, back to my HeadStart job- in two seconds the director had the kids sitting in a circle on the rug. (FYI- she just started singing a song and invited the kids to follow her around the room as she sang and ended on the rug, then she told them where to sit. Hmm. Maybe if I hadn't felt physically threatened by the parents I would have had the heart to do that, because in my old school, I would have, no problem). So she gets out a book and starts reading.

Now, when I was reading (before she came) the kids kept calling out. I would smile and say softly, "Raise your hand. Good job! I love the way you raised you hand" blah blah blah. Of course they ignored me. One little boy (there's always one in a group) talked incessantly. My brilliant behavior mod technique? To SMILE at him(????) and nod, then keep reading. Well naturally in his mind this was an encouragement, so he kept rattling on. I continued to smile at him, touching his chin softly in a loving gesture and said, "Okay, I need quiet now. Thank you". He was wayyyyy too comfortable at this point.

So when the director was reading, naturally he started talking again. I will never forget what she did next. She stopped mid-word and jerked her head to the left to look at him so fast I thought she was going to break her neck. She narrowed her eyes and made the meanest face I've ever seen anyone give a child. She held his gaze for about 4 seconds, then whipped her head back around and continued reading like nothing had happened.

I was STUNNED, to say the least. Nasty glares? That wasn't on my syllabus! No theorist ever said to do that! No child development books said to look at kids like that! You were supposed to worry about their self-esteem, and mean looks might make them feel bad for doing something wrong! You were supposed to help them think about their choices and understand why it was so disruptive to talk, not squelch the talking so you could get on with *gasp* teaching!

It went on like that for a good hour. Boy did she have the best teacher look I ever saw. And her reprimands were sharp and serious. I could not believe that a director was talking like that.

I caught on fast. I guess I just needed permission to do it, to see someone in authority show me, hey, this is the real world, here's how to relate to these kids. Three weeks later I was observed and the lesson, I must say, was one of the best I ever taught. The director was as stunned as I had been when I watched HER teach! She said she was already looking around to find someone to replace me because she was sure I would quit, and she couldn't believe how well I worked with the kids. She said she had never seen someone make their voice SOFTER to get the kids attention, and have it work- even she was leaning in to see what I would say next! And after the behavior managment is in place, that's where all the academics comes in, and that stuff IS based on textbooks and theories. She noticed the techniques I used and was so impressed that she told me she wanted me to be a mentor teacher the following year!

At the next in-service, the HeadStart teachers gathered from all over the county. She asked (in front of all 150+ of them) if she could tell the story of what happened on my first day. I laughed and told her okay. She made this huge deal out of praising me in front of everyone (soooo embaressing- I mean, how are you supposed to react to that?) and told them I would be a mentor next year and she would be sending struggling teachers out to see my class.

She and I developed a close relationship after that, and I still consider her MY mentor. If she hadn't shown me that day that it was okay to be firm, I don't know how long it would have taken me to figure it out.

So I guess I'm hoping to do that for someone else? To say, don't be intimidated by racial or cultural barriers, or the fact that you're an ST, or a new teacher, or your professors told you never to raise your voice with the class. Be firm and do what works. In my case, it has paid off. And in every situation I failed in, it was because I allowed myself to be intimidated- by a child, a parent, an admin, or even by rules I had made in my own mind.

I am a first year teacher- 5 weeks under my belt. I teach high school special ed English in a low income farming community in West TN. Talk about challenging. Who needs to climb Mt. Everest when there are kids with disabilities in reading and writing who have to pass a state standardized test in reading and writing. "How come we write in here everyday?" "Do we have to write the sentence?" "Are we going to have to read today?" IT GETS SO FRUSTRATING!!!!

I student taught in this school last year, and that really helped me out because I already knew the administrators as well as some of my students. My kids like to push buttons, but the hardest thing about sp ed kids is that they just don't remember stuff!!!! I have to review rules and procedures everyday. I always have to remind them to read the directions before they begin working, and even when I remind them, they still just stare blankly at me and say, "Mrs.W what am I supposed to do????"

I started the year out strict but not strict enough. I do have the humor and rapport thing going for me but I still have to raise my voice. I've taken to saying, "Shut your mouth!" as opposed to "Please settle down and sit quietly." because the kids just didn't respond to that. I am white and the majority of my students are not. I have a black ROTC officer come in to observe some of his cadets in my class and that was the advice he gave me. He told me that no black parent would ever get upset about me talking to their child like that. My administrator has backed me up on that, adn the response from my students has proven this true. A little bit of sarcasim, a mean teacher face, and a voice raised when necessary has gone a long way in my classroom.

I was glad to see that others separate students from the group as a form of punishment. Also glad to see that someone else will stop a lesson and just let the kids fly solo for awhile to kind of make them grateful for having you there to explain. As a sp ed teacher I explain things 18 different ways during one class period. It's not the number of time I have to explain that gets on my nerves. It's the fact that a student will ask a question and then not listen as I explain. I've also started having higher functioning students help me out with explaining things. It's important that these kids get the info so I'm willing to step back and let someone they will listen to explain it.

>Regarding the "mean look," what if the kid isn't looking at you? Usually when my kids are disrupitive, they aren't looking at me, so "the look" wouldn't work.

I just say their name in a loud, stern voice, and repeat it very loudly if they still haven't noticed I am talking to them. They'll look over when someone calls
their name automatically and then they see it. Some look away then, but if I'm still dead silent standing right in front of them, they know what I'm doing.
Incidently, I did this Friday with a little boy who is perpetually sitting alone or in the principal's office and he had the nerve to give me the finger as soon as I turned my back (I know because 2nd graders will tell on each other!). This has NEVER happened before, but I honestly was not surprised because this kid is
nasty to the core. When I was told what he did, I said right in front of the offender, "That doesn't surprise me a bit that he did that. That kind of disrespect is exactly why he's sitting over here alone and the you're doing the science activity with the rest of the class". It wasn't even worth my energy to get into with him at that moment.

I guess it just came with practice. I have some specific lines I use on the web page I have linked to below- it tells what the behavior is, and the exact words I
would use to address it.

Are you talking about my first year of teaching, that story about HeadStart (PreK) that I rambled on about in a post above? Once the parents and the directors cleared out, it was just me and the four-year-olds, so I was able to regain my confidence. I started doing the same stuff I had done at the affluent preschool to keep the engaged, and when they misbehaved, I would give 'the look' and say sternly, "I don't like that. You need to stop ____". (Do you see the college textbook/ politically correct influence there? LOL). And I wouldn't continue with what we were doing until the child stopped. 4-year-olds are much easier to intimidate than older kids, so they were good for me my first year.

Hearing the way the other teachers spoke to their students was also an influence, although not always a postive one. We were next to a second grade classroom with a divider wall, not a solid wall, and all I heard the whole year was the teacher's voice, mostly yelling. Never the kids discussing anything, and not ONCE did I hear children laughing, not the whole year. I did pick up some good one-liners from her, though. After all, I heard every word she said. :-) Every teacher in the school either yelled all the time of the kids ran all over them, so once I saw that it was okay to be "mean", I went for it. I had never been in a school where it was alright to do anything less than textbook, so it was a real revelation for me. (Hmmmm... might add for interest that a substitute put the school on the regional news headlines for placing paper towels over a child's mouth and then taping them onto his face to 'stop him from talking'. Thank God I had the common sense not to mimic everything I saw).

What type of student population is this? It sounds like the kids respond pretty well to mild forms of discipline. If so, you may not need to do 'the teacher look'- I can see how you would not want to appear mean when the classroom teacher does not. Maybe when they do something they shouldn't you could say their name softly, look them dead in the eye, and shake your head. They should get the message. Or accompany it with, "I don't like that. You need to ___".

I would talk to the classroom teacher about having authority. Maybe say, "I'm looking for some ways that I can convey to the kids that I am an adult in charge just like their regular teacher. Do you have some suggestions for me? Would it be okay if I added letters to their names?".

If the teacher has the kids already in a routine, they shouldn't give you much trouble. All you should have to do is address situations as they arise (meaning, it's not like they run around the classroom or scream during your lessons because they already know the procedures). PreK kids will only need to see you discipline a child once to know that you will discipline them. They will almost always go to the classroom teacher over you when they need something, though, so don't feel bad if they run to her instead of you. (I found this to be true when I was a student teacher and then as a mentor with student teachers in my room).